The bubble
Sometimes I forget that I live in a sort of supportive bubble. Both among my circle of friends and in the place where I live, the fact that I am a gay liberal attracts about as much attention as the fact that I have brown hair and glasses. And then people like Mrs. du Toit wander into my admittedly narrow field, and I realize again that a huge number of my fellow countrymen hate both my political beliefs and literally who I am. I know how naive this sounds, but it’s jarring. And scary. Especially the lengths people will go to to justify their hatred and fear.
I tried to get in on the conversation over at MDT’s site, and mainly I did it to work out some issues in my own head. (I think I did pretty well, considering the climate over there.) Eventually I gave up, and let them rant on about “whoring out our children’s minds to these radical nut cases” and such without my interference. All the while, I knew I wasn’t going to change anyone’s mind. But now, I can’t get it out of mine.
Those people are monsters, Adam. Don’t try to understand them. Pity them.
Some people reach a stage in their lives when they’re done learning. They have the values they think they need, and they aren’t interested in finding out anymore about the world they live in. They want things they way they want things, and debate ibecomes rationalization.
Being gay like golf? “Don’t bore me with it”?
Then don’t bore me with your marriage, or with your children, or with your smug self-satisfaction.
They’re monsters, Adam — moreso than more obvious monsters, because they don’t even know it. That isn’t something we’re meant to understand. It isn’t our job.
Isn’t writing such people off as monsters just using the same approach from the other side of the fence? Sure their behavior is monstrous, but if we all just tell ourselves that the people on the other side of of an issue are simply unreachable or evil we will never make any progress.
I’m not saying I have the answer… but I think there has to be a better one.
Oh, and Adam… you might not have changed anyone’s mind, but you never know what seeds of awareness you might plant in someone’s mind. It might seem fruitless, but it could be that in a few years they’ll look back at something you said as the point where they began to view things just a little bit differently, even if they won’t admit it now. Of course, they might not, but don’t feel like what you said was futile because it didn’t cause an immediate reaction.
They may not be monsters, but their closed-mindedness and sublimated hatred still scares me.
The fact that MDT’s brother was a gay man who died of AIDS throws an even sadder light on things. Because although he may have been her “best friend” (and here I’m going to indulge in some of the amateur psychoanalysis I’m so known for), that didn’t stop her from being profoundly uncomfortable with the notion of being gay. If she had learned anything from her brother, she wouldn’t be attacking a group like GLSEN – she’d be the president.
A hilariously sad snippet from the “debate” over at MDT:
“I subscribe to the theory that [being gay is] probably genetic. I also think some people go gay because it’s easier to get laid.”
Yeah, listen to Xkot on this one, Adam.
I ploughed through that long thread at Mrs. du Toit’s, though I admit I didn’t read the article to which she linked. I couldn’t be bothered. Some of the people who commented are indeed annoying farts. But I think that, unlike some of those commentators, MDT, whose initial post was clumsy and laden with fallacies and hyperboles, isn’t necessarily one who hates you on the basis that you’re gay. I trust you can see that.
As you know, I’m a lefty to the marrow. But — and I’m loathe to admit it — I can see a kernel of truth in MDT’s argument. In the work I’ve done for “progressive” causes over the years, I’ve seen proponents lose sight of their target because of how they grind everything through what a friend of mine and I call their dogma machine. I don’t disagree with what they’re saying, but I can see how their rhetorical tone won’t influence people favorably. The challenge then becomes finding the means of persuading others to the cause without compromising on the basics.
Maurice: I think everyone can be blinded to some degree by their passions. But I think MDT’s group is even less interested in finding common ground than any rabid lefty. Their idea of “common ground” is, “you stop your whining and come to realize that I’m right.”
And no, I don’t think she hates me because I’m gay. But I think she would be much more comfortable with her world if gay people were invisible. And that’s a scarily common mindset. “Being gay is fine – I just don’t want it thrown in my face” is a hop, skip and a jump away from “Black people are fine, but I wouldn’t want one marrying my daughter.”
Points well taken, Adam. I think my “problem” these days is that my circuits are overloading and I’m being rendered deaf by all the noise. I’m finding myself retreating into my bubble, but the recovering catholic in me also feels guilty for doing so…
I understand why people are wary (MDT’s tone isn’t exactly conciliatory), but from what I read, MDT doesn’t seem to have a problem with anyone who’s openly gay or even gay rights activists. Maybe some of the people in her comments do, but my impression of her is that she has a problem with radical academic leftists.
Not a lot of people are familiar with queer theorists — it’s no wonder, really, since they mostly hide themselves in the Ivory Tower. My husband is an academic so I’m familiar with them, and I’m dead serious when I say that article is not exaggerating. Sure, the “they’re coming to your school!” stuff is paranoid, but I don’t believe anything is being exaggerated when it comes to GSLEN’s actual policies.
This isn’t about gay rights and the right for gays to marry or serve in the army openly or any of the issues most people associate with gay rights. Their policies go beyond tolerance or acceptance or even admiration. Frankly, they’re fanatics with a radical agenda. And I say this as a person who has always supported gay rights (and by that I mean all of them, not just some of them, i.e., “I don’t think they should be fired from their job, but they shouldn’t be allowed to marry” — how gracious).
Just like a person can think Affirmative Action isn’t the right way to go when dealing with the problem of racism and not be a racist, I think people can be alarmed at the sorts of things GSLEN wants to do without being anti-gay.
If I had kids, I wouldn’t my kids being brainwashed at school by crazy right-wing Christians who want to teach them that homosexuality is a sin. But I also wouldn’t want them being given sexual orientation tests at school or encouraged to experiment with their gender or sexuality. Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with any of that. I just don’t think it’s the school’s place. Allowing schools to teach morality is a dangerous path to go down. Once we agree it’s okay for them to do it, it’s just a matter of sorting out which morality should be taught (basically, which group is the loudest) — and who do you think that will be? GSLEN or fundamentalist Christians? (I think this was MDT’s point, actually).
My husband has students who are practically illiterate and yet they graduated high school and managed to get accepted at university. Do you trust people who can’t even teach basic grammar to teach your kids about such complicated matters as sexuality? I SURE AS HELL DON’T.
I’d be happy if parents and schools could manage to teach basic etiquette — that they have to be civil and respectful to everyone, no matter what they think of their lifestyle.
Sorry, Miss A., but it’s MDT who is using fearmongering, personal attacks and lies to inflame her band against those damn radical fags who are trying (and succeeding) to poison our kids’ minds. That doesn’t help gay causes, it hurts them, and she knows it. If she’s so concerned about radicalism, there’s plenty on the right (Michael Savage, anyone?) she can sink her teeth into next time. Too bad she won’t.
And as for morality, schools teach it all the time. You can’t get away from it. Sorry, folks. It would be nice if schools could feel free to teach that all people are equal, and that all people deserve to be judged by their character and actions. But people like MDT will always be there screaming about lefty brainwashing and the evils of secular humanism.
So. many. thoughts. *brain explodes*
I used to do a lot more debating with folks like MDT than I do currently. These days, I tend to disengage pretty fast once the person on the other side starts playing it as a competitive game, rather than as a collaborative exploration of ideas and beliefs. At some point I decided that the negative emotional baggage that aggressive debate left me with outweighed whatever good I might theoretically be doing (like, by influencing some lurker more open-minded than my opponent).
Life’s too short. And the game I play these days is more fun anyway.
You’re right, John. Life’s too short. This one just sort of snuck up on me and attached itself to my brain and wouldn’t let go. But I just deleted the browser bookmark I’d saved to refer back to that thread, so maybe I’m moving on finally.
I’m consistently surprised at how much people are affected by internet unpleasantries. Interfacing with most humans through a semi-anonymous network is a lot like turning over a rock. The things you find underneath you probably didn’t want to see, they might make you sick if you think about them later, but they always have been and always will be there, whether you look under the rock or not.
Wow i’m new here and just fell upon all this information and it’s very interesting. I never really chatted on boards and when i started on the sci fi channel children of dune site i was so wrapped up in it. Actually what happened people were name calling and bashing everyone because people were telling others to boycott the movie because of the actress who played in the movie susan surandon’s political views and it was so vicious but i was so shocked how wrapped up upset and obsessed with it and it was a wasted time! I just wanted to talk about a book and movie and discuss it but got smacked!!
Anyway i was pondering over many things said here about different lifestyles and thought just this weekend how my best friend thought of others and i was really upset by her. I say you need to be more open and as usual i get smacked but really i was just so surprised at her mindset. She’s so smart but believes here belief is ABSOLUTELY right and everyone needs to conform to her ideals it sickens me. My god we can’t talk about politics she kills me and it’s viscious i don’t know i’m just trying to live my life and get to no others. I’m young and maybe a little niave but i have learned to accept people for who they are and it upsets me to see others (FAMILY!!!! FRIENDS my god!!) who don’t have this same view. Your free to think what you want but it’s scary how this influences life through government and everyday things. I guess people just need to live there life do what they can and like all the others who posted hope maybe a few things you say and do further down the line affect someone for some good.